There's a lot of important information on this page to help current student organizations successfully hold meetings and host events, among other activities! While we recommend club student leaders and club presidents review the page in its entirety, you may wish to click on a quick link in the table below to quickly access information about one of the key topics pertaining to clubs.
|Advertising clubs||Petty cash|
|Field trips||Renew your club|
|Filming on campus||Request funds|
|Food trucks||Reserve spaces|
|Forms for clubs||Serving food|
|Invite speakers||Trust accounts|
For more information on the guidelines or processes outlined in this page, visit the Student Activities Office, located in Campus Center (across from the Bookstore), or please contact either the ASMC Director of Student Organizations or the Moorpark College Student Activities Specialist Kristen Robinson at firstname.lastname@example.org or (805) 553-4976. Thank you for promoting student life on campus!
To be considered an official Moorpark College student organization and receive any associated benefits, clubs must:
Be formally recognized by the ASMC Board of Directors. All student organizations must be formally recognized by the Board of Directors in order to receive the benefits offered by ASMC. Benefits include: use of the college name in all publicity; using college facilities for meetings, events, or activities; and requesting funds from ASMC through the Programming Committee.
Review the ASMC Constitution & Standing Rules to understand how clubs are expected to operate. The ASMC governing documents outline procedures by which clubs are expected to operate, as well as grounds by which they could be suspended if are not meeting minimum expectations. Click to view the ASMC Constitution & Standing Rules (ICC rules begin on page 18).
Participate in Inter-Club Council meetings. Formally recognized student organizations are automatically considered a part of the Inter-Club Council (ICC). The ICC will serve as the representative body to coordinate and promote communication and cooperation among student organizations on campus. The ICC is composed of officers and a voting representative from each student organization, and it is required that a representative from each club attend the monthly ICC meetings, which are chaired by the ASMC Director of Student Organizations. Visit the ASMC Board of Directors page for more information about the ICC.
Track your meetings. Take minutes each meeting and collect roll for all members in attendance at each meeting, and provide that information to the ASMC Director of Student Organizations. Clubs should also provide the Director of Student Organizations with scheduled meeting times so this information can be made available on the MC website. Contact the ASMC Director of Student Organizations at ASMCStudentOrgs@vcccd.edu.
Submit your renewal forms on time! Organizations that are active in 2018-2019 and wish to continue in the 2019-2020 academic year must submit the required renewal paperwork by Friday, May 10, 2019. See the "Renew your club" section below for instructions.
One of the benefits to being a formally recognized club on campus is that you have access to reserving spaces for your club's meetings, activities, or events! Most every meeting space or classroom is available for clubs to use, unless already scheduled with a class or by another campus group. The exception to this is the gym, the sports fields, the Forum (in the Applied Arts building), and the Performing Arts Center, each of which requires additional permissions from our Office of Business Services.
To reserve a room, work with your club advisor to complete the required In-House Facility Use form. When requesting to reserve a space for your meeting or activity, please note that the only indoor space on the Moorpark College campus that allows for the service of food is the Campus Center Conference Room, so please request this space if you wish to serve food at your activity. Please submit completed facility request forms to the Student Activities Office for review at least 2 (two) weeks in advance of your meeting, event, or activity. The Student Activities Office is located in the Campus Center, across from the Bookstore. Visit our Contact Us page for hours of operation.
Please visit the other sections of this page if you wish to provide food, hire a food truck, rent equipment, pay speakers/performers, or show a movie for your on-campus activities. Renting equipment, paying for services, or providing honorariums to speakers can take at least three weeks to process. Please plan accordingly. Requisition forms for any payment processing will not be accepted if they are not received at least three weeks in advance of the date payment is needed.
When planning a club meeting, you may find the following resources helpful:
- Google Docs: Google docs allows for the creation and editing of web-based documents, spreadsheets, and presentations. These documents can be stored online and accessed from any computer. Visit www.docs.google.com to learn how to use this free resource.
- SurveyMonkey: SurveyMonkey provides free online questionnaire and survey software. Visit www.surveymonkey.com to get started.
Doodle: This online software simplifies the process of scheduling meetings and events. Check it out at www.doodle.com.
Student organizations must abide by Moorpark College's Food Safety Regulations when providing food to club members or to the broader MC community. Regulations differ slightly, depending on if the meeting or event is a public/community event (advertised off campus, including social media, and is open to anyone/everyone can attend; examples might include fairs or festivals; grand openings, give-away events, or any other event that is designed to increase, celebrate, or promote a business is not a community event) or a private event (specific/restricted guest list in which only those individuals on the list may attend the event).
For public/community events that have been advertised, are held in a public place, or the general public is invited to attend AND the event meets the definition of a public/community event, then the event is to be regulated and requires a permit. The event organizer must apply for a permit from the Ventura County Environmental Health Division (VC EHD) at least 45 days before the event in which food vendors will be present and will be preparing and selling food to the public. The application form must be signed by a Temporary Food Facility-Certified Moorpark College staff person, and it must be submitted to the College Business Services Office no less than 45 days before your event in order to ensure approval from the VC EHD to have food at your event.
Public/community events that feature food often include either a Mobile Food Facility (MFF; a permitted vehicle, like food trucks or food carts) or a Temporary Food Facility (TFF; a food booth that sells or gives away food or drinks). MFFs that possess a current annual health permit issued by VC EHD do not require the submission of a TFF application. TFFs that give away food or drinks from a temporary structure or a non-permitted facility such as a school or park kitchen need to submit a TFF application. TFF applications and instructions can be found on the VC EHD website. Scroll down to "Hiring a food truck" section for more information about this process.
Private events or meetings
For private events, any club, class, or employee group may serve food prepared at home or purchased from an eatery (example: Costco pizza) and will not have to apply for a Health Permit if their event is not open to the public and has a specific guest list with names (it cannot be listed as "invitee & guest"--we need real names here, people!). If food and drink are being donated, and there is absolutely no cost to the club, then no Health Permit is required. If the student club uses a VC EHD-permitted Mobile Food Facility for their event, the club would not need to purchase a Health Permit for its event. Even if a permit is not needed, the College Business Services Office must still be notified of the event no less than 30 days in advance.
Please see Lynda Dobson (email@example.com) in the Administration Building if you have additional questions or if you would like to receive the required paperwork for bringing food trucks on to campus, or for catering a public event. Please scroll down to the "Petty Cash" section to learn about how to access funds from your organization's trust account to purchase food and other items for meetings.
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If a club wishes to invite a food truck on campus for an event it is hosting, or it wishes to retain a food truck that is currently on campus for an after-hours event, the club will need to take the following steps no later than three weeks before the event is to take place (steps 2 and 3 could be interchangeable, depending on which is more important to your club, the date of the event or the vendor's availability):
Step 1: Confirm you have sufficient funds in your club's trust account to cover costs associated with having a food truck on campus (contact Kristen Robinson if you are unsure: firstname.lastname@example.org).
Step 2: Submit a Facility Use Form to the Student Activities Office at least three weeks in advance to secure the date, time, and location of the event; Student Activities Office will work with Business Services Office to identify appropriate campus location for food truck to park, if approved.
Step 3: Contact the potential food truck vendor for the following information:
- Confirmation that they are available on the date and time you've confirmed in step 2
- Confirmation that they accept purchase orders (PO)
- Completed New Vendor Set-Up Packet (if they haven't worked with a VCCCD campus previously or in recent years)
- Quote and contract for costs associated with your event
- Copy of their current health permit with the County of Ventura and their truck or trailer's license plate number
- Copy of their Certificate of Insurance (click for insurance requirements packet)
Step 5: Using Google maps, create a map showing exact placement of food truck as arranged with the Student Activities Office and Business Services Office in step 2 (view sample map).
Step 6: Submit the aforementioned paperwork in Steps 3, 4, and 5 along with a completed hard-copy requisition form (available in the Student Activities Office; view sample requisition) to Kristen Robinson in the Student Activities Office so the information can be input into the VCCCD's system to begin the process of creating a PO for your event.
While clubs will often invite Moorpark College faculty, staff, or students to speak or perform for their organization, often clubs will wish to invite someone from off-campus or outside of the VCCCD to participate in an activity hosted by their members. This is welcomed, but it can take a few weeks to process the required paperwork listed below if the invited guest is receiving an honorarium (i.e., payment for their involvement in your activity), so please plan accordingly!
What is needed if a club is a paying a speaker to come to campus:
Paperwork to process at least two weeks in advance of presentation or performance:
- An In-House Facility Use Form to reserve your desired location on your specified date and time
- A requisition form* for approval of visit by speaker or performer (*hard-copy only; available in the Student Activities Office in the Campus Center or Fiscal Services in the Administration Building)
- Completed Vendor Set-up Packet to add the speaker or performer into the VCCCD system to issue payment
- Completed Invoice For Services Rendered (form #14011); form to be signed by speaker or performer the day of the event and submitted to Fiscal Services to finalize payment
Please note that direct payments of up to $2,000 may be processed by following the steps above. Any payments of $2,000.01 and above also require a Purchase Order.
What if a speaker isn't charging us for her/his time?
Even if a speaker is delivering a lecture or workshop free of charge, she or he should still submit a Standard Agreement form where they acknowledge they are not receiving payment for their speaking engagement, and where they sign off that they will not hold the college or the district liable should anything happen to them or their property while they are on our campus.
Parking for visitors
Clubs can either purchase a parking pass for its guest(s) using petty cash, or their advisors can contact Elizabeth Salas (email@example.com) to request a temporary guest parking spot on behalf of their speaker.
Student organizations can advertise their club's meetings, events, or activities by posting flyers in designated posting places. Printed materials may be posted in the following areas on campus:
- On all general-use bulletin boards located on or inside campus buildings
- Along the sides of the concrete walkway bridges on Raider Walk
- Along the walkway between the Physical Science (PS) building and the Life Science, Mathematics, Computer Science (LMC) Building
There are a lot of free online resources available that students can use to create flyers for their clubs. For example, Canva (www.canva.com) allows for the creation of designs for web or print, including blog graphics, presentations, Facebook covers, flyers, posters, invitations, and much more--all for free. You may also find it helpful to communicate to your club membership via an online email marketing platform. MailChimp (www.mailchimp.com) allows people to create beautiful email campaigns for free, and has been used by MC clubs before.
Club advisors can also submit an Electronic Communications form to request that their club be advertised on the Moorpark College marquee, LCD screens, and/or MyVCCCD portal. Please see the Electronic Advertising Guidelines before submitting a request to ensure your posting meets the necessary specifications.
Advertisements in the Student Voice
Students can advertise in the Moorpark College newspaper, the Student Voice, free of charge. Visit the Student Ads section of the Student Voice website for details.
As a registered student organization, you can also use chalking as a way to advertise for your event with prior permission from the Student Activities Office. Drawings cannot be inappropriate, destructive, or harmful in any way. Writing must remain on asphalt and concrete walkways and cannot go on any vertical surface (e.g., buildings, signs, walls, pillars, posts, benches, planters, doors, windows, fountains, gates, retaining walls, bridges, trash receptacles, steps, light posts, posters, tables, trees, or other such item). Chalk used must be water-soluble and erasable; spray chalk or grease chalk is prohibited. (Chalking guidelines borrowed from the Rutgers University Student Involvement page, found on involvement.rutgers.edu.)
If you are planning an off-campus field trip for your club, you must submit the Field Trip Excursion Request form for the group, and each student participant must fill out the Student Participation Form. As a reminder, faculty advisors must travel with club members to ANY off-campus field trip or excursion that is sanctioned by Moorpark College. As a best practice, Moorpark College recommends having one advisor per 10 students traveling.
Excursion request and student participation forms (REQUIRED)
Below are the forms that are most commonly required for off-campus excursions. Travel forms are due at least two weeks in advance of the field trip to the Student Activities Office in the Campus Center.
- Field Trip Excursion Request (if you're planning an off-campus event)
- Student Participation Form (any student participating in the off-campus event needs to submit this form)
- Student Conference or Campus Visit Form (if a student is attending a conference or visiting a college, they need to submit this form to their club advisor)
- Liability Waiver Form (if your club members will be participating in potentially risky activities, have each participant submit this form)
For a comprehensive overview of student travel, please review the VCCCD Risk Management Department's Student Travel, Field Trip and Excursions Procedures and Forms manual.
Transportation forms (REQUIRED)
If you are not providing transportation to the activity, each participant will need to also submit a Non-District Transportation Notice. If you are providing transportation but a student opts to provide their own ride, that student must submit a Personal Transportation Waiver form.
- Non-District Transportation Notice (if your club is not providing transportation for your trip)
- Personal Transportation Waiver (if a club member decides to provide their own transportation instead of taking district-provided transportation)
- Transportation Request Form (if your club wishes to request use of a Moorpark College-owned 7-, 12-, or 15-passenger van for your excursion)
If your organization is providing transportation to the event and all club members will be riding in said transportation, no additional transportation form is needed from the students.
Advisors can submit a requisition form to contract a bus company (such as Roadrunner Shuttle) for transportation services if the club approves using their trust account funds toward this type of expense. Please see the Purchasing items section of this page for information on how to create purchase orders to contract services. If students travel via Uber, Lyft, or another car service for official college business, the students can be reimbursed from their club's trust account funds if the travel was pre-approved (meaning they submitted the necessary student participation forms) and if they can furnish itemized receipts for the travel. Advisors who possess a VCCCD-issued procurement card may use this card for student travel-related expenses and should revisit their procurement card guidelines.
Students who use their personal vehicles for pre-approved student travel (meaning they submitted the necessary student participation forms) may seek mileage reimbursement, assuming there are sufficient funds in their club trust account to cover the costs of reimbursement. Mileage reimbursement forms can only be submitted after travel has occurred and must be approved by club advisors. Completed mileage reimbursement forms may be submitted to the Student Activities Office for final approval. Click here to download the reimbursement form.
Student meal expenses - per diem
Students traveling as a team or group are frequently paid a small, flat amount to mitigate their meal expenses. This per diem amount varies depending on the team/group, their fund-raising efforts or the amount of funds in their trust account, and the length of their trip. Per-diem rates range from $5 - $25 per person per day. Daily allowances should be set up the advisor and will depend on funding and budgetary limits If a per-diem amount ($5 - $25 per day) is paid to each student, that expenditure needs to be documented on the MC Meal Allowance Form (Word doc or PDF doc). For events that encompass more than one day, a separate sheet including original signatures must be submitted for each day.
Payments to students in amounts that exceed $25 per day per student shall be subject to the same conditions as employee travel, and require itemized receipts (must include date of transaction, vendor name, amount, and detail of expense) documenting each expenditure. Reimbursements for meals will be based on actual costs not to exceed the daily maximum allowance of $55 (no per meal limit), inclusive of all taxes and gratuity (gratuity cannot exceed 15%).
When the expense for a meal is incurred for the team or group as a whole (or for several members of the team/group), the expense shall be substantiated with itemized receipts (must include date of transaction, vendor name, amount, and detail of expense) documenting the expenditure. The expense shall be subject to the same conditions as employee travel with actual costs not to exceed the maximum daily allowance of $55 (no per meal limit). Documentation should include a list of students included for meal expenses.
See the Purchasing items section of this page for information on how to request an advance check issued to your advisor to distribute per-diem meal funds to students. Unspent funds from advances must be returned to the Student Business Office with accompanying receipts with documentation of travel within 15 days of completed travel.
Student meal expenses - procurement card charges
Group meals paid via a VCCCD-issued procurement card require itemized receipts with date of transaction, vendor name, amount spent, and detail of expense. A list of students whose meals were covered should be included when receipts are submitted with procurement card statement. The maximum daily meal limit is $55 and all other meal rules apply (e.g., 15% maximum tips allowed for meals or meal delivery service).
Unallowable travel expenses include: alcohol, tips for baggage, maid, or concierge; personal telephone calls; WiFi with no business need; personal items; spouse or family travel costs; pay-for-view movies/entertainment; or citations or other fines.
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Formally recognized Moorpark College student organizations or departments can request funding for their student-centered activities or events through the ASMC Programming Committee. (Learn more about the students serving on the Programming Committee by visiting the ASMC Board of Directors page.) The Application for Funding should be submitted to the ASMC Director of Budget & Finance (firstname.lastname@example.org) at least two weeks before the funds are needed in order for the Programming Committee to meet and for the money to be transferred, if approved.
Some types of fundraising are permissible, but any fundraising ideas must be vetted and approved by Moorpark College's Student Activities Office before you implement them: (805) 553-4976 or email@example.com. This vetting is required for liability purposes. The Student Activities Office is located in the Campus Center, across from the MC Bookstore. Clubs must have a agency trust account already in place before fundraising takes place. Please see the "Setting up or changing your club's trust account" section below for additional information.
Acceptable methods of fundraising
The following types of fundraising may be permissible by Moorpark College:
- Teaming up with a local eatery to have a percentage of their sales for a day go to your organization. Local places like California Pizza Kitchen, The Habit, Chipotle, and others will provide a percentage of food sales generated that day by the club back to the club in the form of a check.
- Collecting entry or admission fees for events such as fun runs or walks, performances or concerts, speakers or conferences, or other things of this nature, especially if there are door prizes or giveaways awarded to individuals present. An example of this is the FLeX Club's annual Xtreme Raider Challenge.
- Limited selling of nonperishable foods or goods. An example would be a club selling See's Candies or creating custom apparel and selling the items for profit.
- Attending a live taping of a TV show. Clubs can see a live TV taping with companies such as On Camera Audiences and earn money for their group! On Camera Audiences works with over 50 of TV’s biggest shows- America’s Got Talent, Family Feud, American Ninja Warrior, and more. Clubs that bring 10 or more people to one of their shows will receive a mailed check made out to their organization. For more information, call their group booking department at 818-880-8200 or email firstname.lastname@example.org to see which shows are available: http://on-camera-audiences.com/groups.
- Receiving event sponsorships from local businesses or receiving donations of goods or services in kind from local businesses (some restrictions may apply).
All cash and check funds raised by clubs must be deposited into the organization's trust account at the Student Business Office at the earliest time possible. The Student Activities Office has cash boxes available for loan to clubs that wish to security collect funds the day of an event. In addition to fundraising, student organizations can submit a Funding Application to receive financial support from the Programming Committee (see "Requesting funds from ASMC" section above).
Unacceptable methods of fundraising
Sample fundraising activities that are NOT permitted at MC include but are not limited to:
- Bake sale
- Car washes
- GoFundMe accounts
- Events that involve an element of chance like a casino night or card tournament
- Signing contracts that include ongoing funding agreements on behalf of the Ventura County Community College District, Moorpark College, or a Moorpark College-sponsored student organization
- Using online services such as PayPal or Venmo to receive funds for your club
Receiving donations or fundraising payments
If an individual or outside organization wishes to make a financial donation to your club, they may do so by writing a check out to "Moorpark College" and writing the club's name in the Memo line. Cash or check donations should be deposited into your club's trust account at with an accompanying VCCCD Donation/Gift Acceptance form. You may make deposits at the Student Business Office, located on the first floor of Fountain Hall. Non-monetary donations, such as equipment, also require the submission of the VCCCD Donation/Gift Acceptance form to the MC Business Services department, located in the Administration Building across from the President's Office.
Please contact the MC Student Activities Office with any questions regarding fundraising or receiving donations: (805) 553-4976 or email@example.com.
The Ventura County Community College District must account for all spending done by student organizations that have been formally recognized by the Associated Students of Moorpark College. This is managed through the set-up of a trust account. Each official club can set up a trust account, which allows them to receive and deposit funding which they can spend on things like conferences, prizes, food, and other items. The following paperwork demonstrates how to use or update a trust account:
- Blank trust account SET-UP form (for new or returning clubs that do not yet have a trust account)
- Sample trust account set-up form (shows how you might fill in the required components)
- Blank trust account UPDATING form (for clubs that have a trust account but need to change their form)
- Sample trust account updating form (with examples of the data you would input into the required fields)
Student organizations can withdraw up to $200 (max) in petty cash to cover minor out-of-pocket advances or reimbursements. Examples of appropriate purchases might include snacks for a club meeting or small materials for a club activity. Petty cash fund are not to be used to purchase equipment, pay for repairs, materials or supplies for building repairs or ground improvements, travel, or personal check cashing. (Please first read the petty cash guidelines for more information.)
To access petty cash from a club's account, a student or advisor listed on the club's trust account signature form (see above section) should complete a Requisition form requesting the funds. Only hard-copy Requisition forms may be submitted. Clubs may pick up a Requisition form at the Student Activities Office (located in the MC Campus Center), or from Fiscal Services (located in the Administration Building).
Once the petty cash form has been signed by all necessary signatories (one club officer, one advisor, the Student Activities Specialist, and the Division Dean), the petty cash requisition form can then be taken to the Student Business Office (SBO) to retrieve the funds. All unspent cash must be resubmitted to the SBO with original receipts and a list of attendees from the meeting or event in which the petty cash was used within 10 days of the activity. Clubs may only have one petty cash requisition form active at a time and cannot submit a new form until the previous one has been reconciled with SBO. Please contact firstname.lastname@example.org with any questions.
Other purchases or expenses that do not fit the petty cash guidelines must be paid through either a purchase order or advance check. Making a purchase order or requesting an advance check starts with the submission of a Requisition form. Only hard-copy Requisition forms may be submitted. Clubs may pick up a Requisition form at the Student Activities Office (located in the MC Campus Center), or from Fiscal Services (located in the Administration Building).
Requisitions for advance checks must be received by MC Fiscal Services no less than two weeks before the date of travel. Renting equipment, paying for services, or providing honorariums to speakers, or ordering items for your organization can take at least three weeks to process. Please plan accordingly. Requisition forms for any payment processing will not be accepted if they are not received at least three weeks in advance of the date the event is taking place or the item is needed. The Ventura County Community College District has thousands of preferred vendors for a variety of goods and services, but if a club wishes to use a vendor not listed in the VCCCD database, the vendor will need to submit a New Vendor Creation Packet. Adding a new vendor to the database can take up to 2 weeks. This is on top of the 2-3 weeks it can take for a purchase order to be processed by Moorpark College and the District Administration Center. Please plan accordingly.
Students, faculty, staff, or local community members must submit an application for approval before conducting any filming or commercial photography on the Moorpark College campus. Please select the appropriate filming permit from the two options below, and submit the completed form to the Moorpark College Business Services Office, located in the Administration Building.
- General Film Permit (for faculty, staff, or other community members)
- Moorpark College Student Film Permit
All active student organizations who wish to continue their operations into the next academic year must renew their club's paperwork with the Student Activities Office by the end of the current academic year. Hard-copies of the required paperwork are available in the Student Activities Office, with electronic versions provided in this section.
Student organizations applying for renewal must submit the following four (4) documents to the Student Activities Office by Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 5:00 p.m.:
- Student Organization Officer Information Form
- Student Organization Advisor's Agreement (to be completed by each advisor, should a club have more than 1)
- Trust account update form (update with names of students who are permitted to spend your club's funds as well as your club advisor/advisors; view sample completed form)
- An updated copy of your club's Constitution & Standing Rules (sample constitution template)
Hardcopy versions of all the aforementioned club renewal/formation forms are available in the Student Activities Office (Campus Center, across from Bookstore). Student organizations that have been inactive for over two (2) years and wish to become active again must go through the same steps as those students forming a new organization.
Please note that some forms used by clubs (e.g., requisition forms or deposit slips) cannot be downloaded from this page and must be picked up in hardcopy form from the Student Activities Office.
Club renewal paperwork: Clubs that wish to continue into the next academic year must submit club renewal paperwork
Electronic Communications Submission: Want to advertise your club event on the marquee, in the Portal, or on the LCD screens around campus? Have your advisor submit this form
Facility Use Form: Submit this form to the Student Activities Office if you wish to reserve a space on campus for your club meetings or for an event
Field Trip/Excursion Request form: Your club advisor must submit this form, along with a roster of all participants (and their 900- numbers) and any required transportation forms (see Field trips) to the Student Activities Office two weeks in advance of a field trip
Funding Application: If you wish to request funding from the Associated Students of Moorpark College, please complete this form and bring it to the Student Activities Office
Invoice for Services Rendered: If you hire a speaker and that person is to be paid less $2,000 or less, please submit a completed requisition form and this Invoice form to Student Activities
Mileage reimbursement form: If someone in your club drove other members on a pre-approved field trip, that member could be reimbursed for their mileage
Standard Agreement form: Needed if you wish to hire a person or business for a service, and that person or business does not provide a contract
Transcript Addition form: If you held an officer position or were in an Honors society (e.g., Phi Theta Kappa), you can have this involvement reflected on your official academic transcripts by completing this form and submitting it to the Student Activities Office
Trust account set-up form: If you formed a new club and you wish to establish a trust account, please complete this form and submit it to the Student Activities Office
Trust account update form: If you already have a trust account established but need to update which people can authorize spending from it, submit this form to the Student Activities Office
Vendor set-up packet: Needed when you wish to create a purchase order with a vendor we haven't previously used